JACK "COWBOY" CLEMENT INTERVIEW (circa 1977)
Part 2
[#1 John Lomax III ]
[#2 Cowboy Jack Clement]
[#3 Bob Webster now enters the conversation]
#1 - What can
you add about the
#3 - Jack and I
are going down there before long to spend the night,
they're remodeling the
#1 - Yeah
#2 - Remember
when Reynolds and Dickey first came down there, they were both going to teach
school. But I got Reynolds a better deal over there at the tap room, when you
and [unintelligible] $50.00 a week bartending for about 3 or 4 hours, right! and $50 a week for singing - how many nights a week was it?
#3 - Usually
when we didn't have someone else.
#2 - But it got
to be a trip, I mean it got to be a happening place.
#3 - Was it the
same place that Mike Condra ran later on? #2 - No, I
never heard of him.
#3 - This would
have been after you all left.
#2 - It all
started one night. Webster Bennett had bought the tap room. Me
and Billy used to drop in there occasionally - it was just a real quiet place
that served beer.
#3 - That's where I met the both of you.
#2 - Yeah, it
was always a nice little room.
#3 - It used to
be a private club long time before that
so it was very
well appointed, well located bar. This was the thing, the place. The guy that
ran it after you all left, later went to
#2 - I don't
know.
#3 - I'm pretty
sure
#2 - I never heard
that name.
#1 - They still call it
the Tap Room?
#3 - Right.
#1 - He told me
Janis Joplin used to come down there and sing which would have been after you
all left.
#3 - Then they
closed the hotel, they welded the doors shut and he went to a place on another
street, another part of town and called it the Taproom.
#1 - O.K. -
that was the Taproom.
#3 - But he did
operate it for a while.
#2 - See, in
#3 - You bought
a desk from him?
#2 - We hung
around the place. We knew the lady at the desk and, you know, we were on the
scene all the time. And they'd come over to the studio. There's a chair down at
Studio A that I've get to get that was stolen from me by the engineer at the
#3 - Came out
of the lobby of the hotel.
#2 - It had,
you know, seating. It had plastic, worn
kind of thing.
#3- Worn chair.
#2 - Well it
wore out and I took it off, but the main thing, it's still there. I'm going to
get that back and my Mickey Mouse clock.
#3 - Well, I've
already - Jim said you could have that.
#2 - I didn't
mean for that to be sold - those two items. Well, anyway. Well, I ain't quarreling about that. I don't want that, but the
Mickey Mouse clock - that's a sentimental sort of thing. Jack Spears, had one
of the cartoonists at
#1 - You
started working with Tom T. Hall, before Pride?
#2 - Sort of
about the same time, I think. When I came
to
#3 - I do remember
now what happened. I was in there
one night drinking
a beer with Jack Evans, we were the only people there, I think and another guy
hung around there, he was in the loan business, and I still see him. He lives
two blocks from where Katie and I used to – and I still see him. We were in
there having a few beers and Russ Bennett was behind the bar, and he asked me
why I didn't buy half the joint.
#2 - And help
him run it, huh?
#3 - Yes.
#2 - So he
could tend to his other business.
#3 - I used to
be a bartender years ago in
So I says "How much do you want” and he said,
“Oh $300.00 [?
– ed.]”.
#2 - (Laughing)
$300.00!
#3 - But it
increased in value, because when I sold it… but we had a lot of fun.
#2 - Faron Young still owes you for two six packs - right?
#3 - No, that's
Webb Pierce, for blowing a hole in the ceiling. That was quite a debt. You could
blow a hole in the ceiling. But that was good. We had a lot of fun, then it got
to be -- Then I quit fooling around. Bill, Jack and ....
#2 - Webster is
real straight, always got a tie on, Traffic Manager at Houston Chemical. Company. He had to get all the box cars unloaded on the
right shift and everything. They said he was one of the best. Made good money,
drove a snappy little Oldsmobile, you know.
#3 - I wondered
though, there was a patio and pool between the -
#2 - A great
big fine, modern igloo.
#3 - Between
that part of the hotel, you know, and the building
where Jack had a studio and Bill's office was a very small parking lot and I
was walking through that parking lot and went over to Bill's office
#2 - And we
lived -
#3 - Jerry came
walking in and be said, "Where you going" and. I said "Just
walking around. I came into town for lunch. You know, I got to go back to the
office". "When are you going to quit fooling around with a cheap
music bum like me and Bill." And I don't know if it was that day - it
wasn't that day it was shortly after, that I went back to lunch one day and
called my boss in
#2 - So, we
sort of had the run of the hotel. The hotel manager was one of our best
buddies.
#3 - We married
him.
#2 - Yeah, we
pretty - Bill Harper produced his wedding. And then Mrs. Hartley Travel thing
was in the lobby there. So we were always butting in, and Bill was always
sending DickeyLee on trips, you know,
big tours. He'd go over there and get a string of tickets 12 feet long, you
know. So it got to where when we wanted to take a trip, we just go to bars.
Hartley and she'd make all the arrangements.
#3 - Our barber
was there across the hall.
#2 - Yeah, the
barber shop was there.
#3 - And I
still, when I'm in
#2 - Besides
that, there's a place right across from the hotel where you can leave the car in
the morning and they fix it that day and you pick it up that night. And then on
the other corner next to the hotel was the L & 11 Snack Shop. And they had
some of the tastiest goodies in tine world. Open late at night where everybody'd go and eat oyster stew.
#3 - And
potatoes - what were they - scalloped!
#2 - Au gratin potatoes. And it was right across from the City Auditorium.
#1 - Where did
you run into Earl? how'd he get into the picture?
#2 - Earl lived
at Anita, before my time. He is, of course, a chemical engineer.
#3 - They
worked at the same place. He came to work at the Houston Chemical Corporation
then we got to know one another you "now. Earl was running around. He had
gotten a divorce or was getting a divorce, Earl was a nice person too, and, of
course, when I get to know him and had this heir joint, I naturally became one
of Earl's friends. 'then you know Earl was as much into
the music aversion then as he is now. You know how that is. So he gravitated to
Jack and Bill's immediately, as soon as he began to hang around the hotel bar.
And he ultimately moved in. We had an apartment with three vacancies, 801 was
the number, we have reason to remember that number
vividly.
#2 - You've got
to remember John, I was a star in that hotel there.
#3 - Absolutely.
#2 - The cowboy
told me once that we never advertised
who would
entertain, but we had live entertainers six nights a week. We were open six
nights a week. All started one night when
me and Bill Hall and Russ, and I don't remember if you were involved at that
point or not - there wasn't anything but a juke box, wasn't any sound system or
anything, we were just sitting there, there wasn't anybody around, I think Big Syd was there. I said, "Why don't I go get my guitar
and entertain everybody." They said it was a great idea, so I went next
door and got my guitar and came back to the Tap Room and started singing. Big Syd kept saying, "Play Malaguena".
He had had a few cocktails. And I thrive on a good heckler, so that got up my
energy and I got to singing and then some people dropped by. Then the next
night, I got to singing again and within two or three days I had talked Russ -
I think Webster was involved, because I talked him into putting a little sound
system in there so I could be heard better.
#1 - We had a fine
sound system.
#2 - Yeah, the first high fidelity P. A. system,
stereo.
#3 - Before we
had live entertainers, you know, before the entertainers came on, in the afternoon
and early evening, we played stereo records.
#2 - Uh-huh
#3 - LP's
#2 - had
speakers at each end of the room.
#3 - I had plenty of
stereo records. Bill Pall, unknown to me, had enrolled me in a couple of record
clubs, and the records kept coming in. I couldn't stop the flow.
#2 - And then
Allen and Dickey got there. Neither one of them wanted to teach school. We got
Allen this gig here tending bar - they were needing
somebody to come in the afternoons.
#1 - Dickey's
record all of sudden broke. He didn't teach school.
#2 - But for a
good period of time there we had me and Allen and Dickey in there just about
every night performing. It got to be, you know, crowded. Peopled drop by to
hear it. it was always informal. Reynolds was the only
one that was official there, see, but then I would be there most every night
and these people would come to town, Chet Atkins was in there, and Johnny Cash
and the Carter Family and Merle Kilgore, Charlie Rich, Roy Clark and Jerry Lee.
The Tap Room was a happening place.
#3 - We had the
Stonemans - Jack talked me into booking them in there
too.
#1- The Stonemans in there?
#2 - Yeah, we
had the Stonemans in there and it was as happening
joint.
#3 - It held 60
people. We'd get a hundred people in there and then the 5 or 6 Stonemans would get up and do their number.
#2 - We'd get
in there and it would be closing time. So they would have to lock the door and
quit selling booze. But everybody was having such a good time and Russ and
Webster would be so happily drunk by then, they keep it awake. And sometimes
there would be a packed house until 4 o'clock in the morning. And then, they
got to passing out keys, to me and Bill Hall, so we could go in there on
Sunday, and then you could walk right out the door - back door of the Tap right
into the pool. "We'd go out there and get some people and say "Come
on in we'll have a beer - we've got a key to the place". And it'd be
packed then on Sunday morning. It got out of hand - out of hand.
(3 people
talking at once)
#2 - The hotel
was part of our facility. Bill Hall had a key that would fit any room. He used it
too. Webster and Dickey had an apartment there and Joe Davis was there and Earl
lived there, didn't he? And sometimes I would go check in the place days at a
time.
#3 - He had
801. It had a huge living room.
#2 - I always
liked to hang around there, you know.
#3 - If you had
801 you didn't have to check in. 801 was a room easily this big and there were
3 bedrooms - it had a kitchenette, And we had a key
made for each. That was where we lived, you know. But the manager we had for
the most part, most
of the time
#2 - He, John
D. Harrison, an English guy, and he loved us. We could do no wrong. If I
wrecked the room, he'd just out it on my bill.
#1 - Yeah.
#2 - I never
could resist louvered doors, you know, see if you can go through 'em.
#3 - And then,
this guy Russ Bennett was a very enterprising sort of fellow. He was a con man.
That's what he was. He talked Jack and me into going into partners with him.
The three of us and we bought us a Vulcan boat. This boat, we were told it was a
Chris Craft and indeed it was, a Chris Craft kit boat.
You know give it to the kids, put together, you know - sort of tinker toys. Oh
boy, it was a great one, that boat.
#2 - Well
actually, it was just that cable - we were out
one time - it
wouldn't start a couple of times, but we were out one time and the guys went along
on the river and the cable broke, the steering cable and the thing took a sharp
left.
#3 - Nobody
thought to turn the throttle down.
#2 - Went into
the bank before somebody remembered to turn it off. Well none of us were really
boat owners - the kind to get out and fix something, and I got stranded out in
the middle of the river in the widest part one day when there was no wind, no
oars and the motor wouldn't start, we just had to drift in - it took about two
hours. We kept talking about going down and fixing the boat – there wasn't that
much wrong with it when we got it. but it sat there
and It rained and it sat there some more and it rained some more and the boat
sunk - not from water coming in through the bottom but from filling up from the
too. It got too heavy and went down.
#1 - It was
overwhelmed by water rather than by the sun.
#2 - Yeah,
filled up with rain water.
#3 - Last time
I was on, it was a Sunday, Bill Hall and I and Russ.
#2 - It did
rain in
#3 - We went
out, we went pretty far up the river and the cable broke again. So the only
time, you know on a boat like that, the motor cable, you know, it goes in
circles because it's a centrifugal force. So the only way we could get back, we
went into the bank that time and a couple of guys came on the boat to hell) us
get off. And when we could get back, I laid down on my back and fixed a way
where I could get my hands up underneath, you know, the gas tank or something
and get hold of this little, well it’s the tiller, or something, it's only
about that long. And Bill sat there chuckling and this guy Russ Bennett
was up there,
you know, telling me how to steer the boat - going, you know, this way and that
way. And he is about as much of a boatman as I am, and this thing was killing
me, because it had no leverage - big long, like a tiller and of course getting it
into the swift part was difficult too.
#2 - We could
have fixed the boat if we could have tuned
up the engine and
fixed the cables, it would have done all. right. But
we were three non boaters, putters-off of things to do later. People are captured going on boats. It's the
only boat I've ever owned part of.
#3 - I was on
twice. After that second time I never wanted to go on again. But that guy, this
Bennett, we loved - He is still in
#2 - He used to
have an empire going on there for a while building skyscrapers and all that stuff.
He was an energizing cat, he just couldn't wait for
anything. He always got to get the job done, some of that too. Not only Russ
Bennett, you know, he'd go hog wild in five minutes, get in any kind of
business.
#3 - He never
should have lost that
#2 - But he was
trying to con us.
#3 - But for a
while there we were making money.
#2 - Well, they
got to giving away more beer than they were selling.
#3 - That's what happened to the old quarters.
#2 - But not on the scale like this. This got totally -
it became a
complete - the Tap Room became every man's property, sort of, you know.
#1 - That's why
the old quarters - too much hassle to collect money for beer.
#2 - But during
the time that it flourished, it was a happening room, and an illogical place.
#3 - We had a
crowd of people we called up and say who is going to entertain, we never committed
ourselves. But it got to where there were people I was hiring all the time. A
girl, Big Helen, they called her, Big H, she played for cocktails, she played
the piano and sang, and beautifully.
#2 - She was
part of my local group. Sang with "Patches."
#3 - Yeah, and
so she sang, you know, and finally the school district told her to either teach
school or play piano. Well, anyway, another guy, Joe, what's his name and Jack
brought David Parker down to play guitar.
#2 - Walter
Forbes was a lot more on the scene in
#3 - Lamar, the
college was there - folks seemed to stay That's why
they loved Allen, because Allen, boy, they still love him down there. And the
folks seem to think so, you know with Walter.
#2 - Allen and
Dickey did a good thing together. They did a lot of duet stuff, Joe Beanie.
#3 - Yeah, when
Dickey was in off the road, he'd be down here entertaining anytime I wanted and
the people who did a show at the Auditorium across the street played when in
town.
#2 - A lot of
them stayed at the hotel.
#3 - Yeah, a
lot of them, and they'd get up and sing for different people.
#2 - That was a
fun place. I had a lot of fun in
#3 - Remember
when Bill brought Charlie Price down.
#2 - We all
went to
#3 - There
wasn't any freeway then and I remember coming coming
home at 2 o'clock in the morning, you know how foggy it gets down there? And
this Oldsmobile, it was a great car, but the gas gauge only read
"Empty", ''Half full," or "Full" and we're whipping
along coming from Houston to Beaumont, you know, when it's foggy you don't see
anything, anywhere. I heard Charlie say something to Bill, he was in the back
seat, but was looking up from`. "It's obvious we're out of gas.
Well, we put
him up, and them we did a number. Allen and Dickey doing
their thing - whatever. In my joint, Charlie could see everybody and all
of this alive, everybody all the customers there. And Jack was the one they’d
asked for the most. It was kind of a carnival time.
#2 - He forgets
too, at midnight when we'd lock the doors, not let anybody in any more, but people
would call up and ask if different ones would be there.
#3 - But he
told me at one time when we were hiring
and our policy was
to have everything, every night, so for a while there, you can see why I didn't
have time to fool around with a bunch of railroad tank cars out there.
#1 - Jack was
telling me, you all worked with Cookie and the Cup Cakes.
#2 Oh, they did
"Matilda" down there - That was their smash hit.
#1 - I was over
at
and we used to
have Cookie and Bobby Bland play for our dances
#3 – Well,
Bobby Bland was with Duke Records at
#2 - Didn't we
do a bunch of stuff with Cookie and the Cup Cakes?
#3 - We did
"Matilda"
#2 - I did
"Matilda"
Hadn't they done that before?
#3 - No, in
eight years they did a lot of things. #2 - Is that when I got Curie. George
Curie
#3 - Yeah, and
on top of that he used to come over, Finally the Duke people started to send
people over, remember?
#1 - Yeah, was
Bobby Bland ever over there?
#3 - Yeah, I
think so.
#2 - I'm pretty
sure he was there sometimes. That guy who sang "Raindrops Keep Falling on
My Head", used to come over there.
#1 - B. J.
Thomas
#2 - Oh that
was B. J. and the Fire House #l - That's right.
#2 - And Ken
Ritter, of course, was always helping do something down there with Johnny and
Edgar.
#1 - Did Ray
Head ever come in? Back in ‘62 Ray Head was doing James Brown stuff.
#3 - Now an
interesting thing which I always got a kick out of, two weeks ago tomorrow, I
guess it was, when I was driving from
#2 - Did I cut
that?
#3 - I don't
remember. You were the one that was running the board, anyway.
#2 - Champagne
Brothers - that was, I think, I cut some stuff with them in
#1 - They
played in
#3 - I listened to
this most of this hour and luckily he played George Jones records. He played
"This Could Go On Forever." I was waiting
around to hear a John Dean record to see if he did it there or went to
#2 - Jack Scott
- remember him?
#3 - There are countless local hillbillies you know,
I was here, I hadn't been there since last year. I was driving
along … , and hear all these records, they were so
familiar to me - that last hour driving to
#2 - I carried a lot
of stuff on "Moon Mulligan" down there. "Moon Mulligan"
remember him? We cut a bunch of stuff on him.
#3 - Moon lived near there. - A grand piano sitting over in the
studio. –
#1 - But Tompall and Charley Pride were
#3 - I think
so.
#2 - Once I got
to Nashville and got settled in and got my little cubby hole in the RCA
Building, where I had Chet Atkins right down there on the main floor - RCA
Studios A and B, right there where I could book. By the time I got my lathe up
there and my two tape recorders, I started cutting records and getting songs
cut and, I think it was during that time, maybe, I got into Tompall,
after I was...
#1 - Oh, we
could check that the records. Did Jack Johnson bring Charley Pride to you, too.
#2 - Yeah
#1 - Then you
pretty much arranged to engineer and finance?
#2 - I got - It
wasn't a demo - it was a master. I paid for it and produced it and Jim Malloy
engineered it.
#1. - You mean you
did a master instead of a demo? And just took it over all together.
#2 - Yeah,
that's what came - that was his first record. I owned it. I paid for it and
subsequently sold it to RCA..
#3 - That'll make his insurance effective for you. The other is for Arthur and Mr. Black?
#1 -
Incidentally, we are going to pay the smaller fee on the policies than Al Nicklos because right now the insurance company has got a
sort of a sale on.
#2 - Oh, yeah?
I'd like to be in on this and horse trade. I'd like to beat out Allen Nicklos and... (Singing "There's A Little Bit of
Everything in
#1 - You know,
I heard, when I was in
#2 - I don't
know if he ever cut it later.
#1 - Or maybe
he was live or something. But it was incredible, because the version you cut
was so much better than the other, and that's a fine song.
#2 - Yeah
#3 - A really
fine song.
#2 - (Singing)
"Is Anybody Going To San Antone."
#1 - What was
it like working with Pride? I understand some of the professional's atmosphere
would get kind of tense?
#2 - With
Charley Pride it was always a hassle. Just a question of how
much. It was never comfortable,
like it should have been, because Charley Pride is up tight.
#1 - Did you
pick all the material and you just had him sing it, or did he try to choose the
material?
#2 - I just
gave him - let him hear a lot of songs - let him learn the ones he liked. I
picked out songs that I thought fit his voice and play them for him, but I gave
him plenty of
choice. I always gave
him a lot of choice. The first record I cut with him I had put together a tape
of about 8 songs that I had gathered up - most of which I didn't publish. And
he came to town and I gave him the tape, and he took it and went down to visit
his father in
#1 - Did you
pick the rendition on the Pride section or was that RCA, or what was that?
#2 - I picked them
the first time and from then on I picked them a long time, until he got to know
who they were. Charley would go out and hire some people to play with him on
the road and then he would bring them into
the studio and then I would have to be the diplomat and let them sit out
while somebody else did the studio playing.
#1 Interesting,
this is how the mail goes out now.
#2 - Hugh, this?
#1 - Yeah
#2 - All I can
- does it say something?
#1 - Just the
catalogue is so dull... recording..
#1 - Well he
didn't add to the story.
#2 - Well you'd
be glad to have him on tape as a story, as separate story or whatever.
#1 - It's a
whole story but I don't want to do that.
#2 - Keep him
on tape.
#1. - I was toying
with the idea of going down to
#2 - Yeah.
#1 - But I
never even met him before.
#2 - You could
call him up and get my half of the conversation, anyway.
#1 - If I do
wind up pursuing this into a book, I'll have to talk to him. I wouldn't want to
do it without his permission.
#2 - Yeah, he'd
probably do it. He told me one time he wouldn't let anybody interview him
except Paul Ackerman.
#1 - Well, I
don't imagine Paul would get around to it.
#2 – No
#1. - I could pull
my credentials, although it isn't done
yet - my family's
credentials, I mean they aren't mine.
#2 - Maybe my
record will hit and make it easier.
#1 - Well. that wouldn't hurt.
#2 - "On
the Cover of A Rolling Stone" (singing)
#1 - To me the
story should be run, regardless, even if there was no record, it should be run -
it's history. It's valid, it had an enormous impact, it
has helped shape what we are listening to now, which is really dreadful, but I
mean it helped pave the way for the whole Rock and Roll era. If it hadn't been
for Sun Records, I don't think there would have been -
#2 - Sun was a
happening place. It was a hang out place. That's where it happens - where you get
certain people hanging out during a certain period of time. Get the right
combination and then the music flows. I've been around a couple of places where
it's been flowing. As far as
#1 - Hear
anything about
#2 - Yeah, I
think about it three or four times a week. But I don't plan on doing anything
about it until the right time. If it's never, that's all right too. In the
meantime, the tapes are pretty well, got the attic insulated so they'll stay in
good shape. Wouldn't want to put them any place where there is an extreme temperature
one way or the other. Tape will last for a long time.
#1 - Yeah,
that’s the nicest thing about the music business --- is that records last
almost as long as forever.
#2 - Well, one
thing I'm a little bit proud of is as far as the records I've cut in the business,
a lot of them still get played. (slick-click,
(singing) Come in we're making a movie - got your cameras? when are the cameras
going to be here? Didn't you bring the movie cameras? Don't you have the movie
cameras in your car?
#1 - You better
have. There is a rumor that you’ve never
had as much fun cutting records as you had in
#2 - Yeah.
#1 - What's the
matter now? Why isn't it as much fun? -
#2 - I don't know.
#1 - Not the
right question. What I'm trying to get at, I think, is to me now,
music is too layered and too artificial. It's not music to me when it takes a
year to cut an album,
not the way you
did it, but for instance somebody who works a year to come out with a Linda Ronstadt, album for instance. It costs $300,000 to produce
something which is pieced together virtually, instead of being able to cut, you
know, go in there in an hour and cut an album.
#2 - All right,
I'll tell you why it was more fun. There wasn't anything you had to do before
you made the music. You'd just walk right in and make the music. You don't have
to mess around getting the drum sound, you don't have to mess around getting the
earphone balanced right, you don't have to do all that stuff. I mean we didn't
do if that way back then. We didn't have
baffles, we didn't have earphones, except when we over dubbed - didn't have any
cue system. We just did it acoustically. Sometimes, the walls would sing back
to you a little bit. It wasn't like singing into a bunch of cotton. Still the recording
studios are too dead right now to suit me. And that's a cyclic thing - studios
get live, then they get dead, then they get too live and too dead. But music
don't change that much. Well, all studios now-a-days have to be versatile to be
commercial studios. They are called upon to do a lot of different set-ups and
you can't have stylized kind of sound in a commercial studio that you could
have in a place like Sun, or a place like my attic. I couldn't build a studio
if I was trying to do it commercially, because people are too indoctrinated and
brain¬washed with all of this bull shit, engineer
stuff E.Q. and time cubes and linear phasers and all
them gadgets. Well I decided I don't like the sound of gadgets, I like the
sound of pure musical instruments and out of the orchestra there's
hundreds of them, flutes, fiddles, Conga drums, bass drums, trombones, trumpets,
clarinets. Mostly what I'm into right now is cutting some tapes that I like to
hear at home. Different sounds, different musical sounds. But I don't want to
do it with gadgets and gimmets - I want to do it with
music.
#1 - When did
you know you had reached the point where whet you heard sounded right to you
would also be right for the radio?
#2 - I don't
know if I've reached that point.
#1 - There is
an interview somewhere where they asked, “When did you know you had really made
it?” When did you say to yourself “I've
made it”?
#2 - I don't remember
saying that yet. It's just being able to want to keep looking for something -
is the name of the game. Not having the curiosity pounded out of you by
convention, by bull shit people.
#1 - That seems
to me like, kind of what J.M.I was going to do. I read somewhere, quoting you
or Allen, that J.M.I. was all about music we can take home and listen to.
#2 - Yeah
#l - As against what was coming out of
#2 - Well what
I have found is that most of the hit records that I've had weren't usually like
the other stuff that was selling at that particular time. I don't have trouble
going out on the limb. I had trouble getting people - other people going, out
on the limbs musically.
#1 - Well the
most interesting thing about Waylon's album was that you stripped all the excess
things away from him and you let him play the guitar, and for the first time on
a label name that can remember it made people listen to what he was singing,
and how he was singing it and what he was playing on the guitar. It was
stripped to the bone and to the room and to the local.
#2 - Well, if
you listen to Waylon sing and play the guitar, when
he's right, which is a good part of the time, then that is completeness. Waylon
is elegant, him and his thumb.
Waylon's got a
million dollar thumb. All I'm saying is Waylon is terrific - just him and his guitar.
Anything else you could add to it, it ought to be something to enhance it
rather than to act upon it or to change it.
#1 - But up
until "Dreams' it had been covered up.
#2 - Well, see it's a mystery to me why people admired Waylon's guitar
playing around town, and they wouldn't let him play on his own records. That
kind of thing mystifies me. One of the facts why people didn't think Waylon was
a good guitar picker is that they wouldn't let him play on his own records. You
can’t do it that way, because you've got to make records - ear phones and
baffles - making records is not the natural way people go out and make music.
They don't make music in any other situation where they're strapped up with ear
phones and they've got to work two mics and all this
crap. Everybody's cut off in a little cubby holes, can't see anybody and half
the time the records were not cut by the same people at the same time - the guy
who played bass may not even know the guy who played trumpet. Probably don't.
That ain't no way to make
NATURAL music. And that's all the music
I want to make from now on, just NATURAL music. I want it to be naturally and
anatomically right. Rhythm - that's the key to it for me, right rhythm
patterns, deciding which foot you want to put forward, the left or the right.
Well, in dancing school the man starts on the left and the woman starts with
the right. And in a marching band, everybody starts with the left foot. But I
don't think you got to stay on the left. I like to shift the foot sometimes,
you know, and then come back to it. Surprises,
spontaneity, that's a good word, music is supposed to be spontaneous - right?
Unless it's classical music or something. And that's done in a certain way. But it's still sometimes
the symphony is long, sometimes not quite so long. But it seems to me that music, other than
stuff written out note for note, ought to have surprises in it. Seems to me that would be the essence of it. Well, that's the kind of music I want to make
- where there's room for spontaneity. But you can't hardly
do that when in the samba beat pattern. It's something like that. I'm talking about
getting music beat out of
mental grounds up into your ass.
#1 – Spadey [Brannen] does that.
#2 - Yeah, but Spadey sometimes - this movement I'm talking about is an
action and a reaction at the same time. It's something that happens when music
is doing a certain thing. It's really jazz that I am
talking about. But jazz ain't something you plan -
jazz is something that has to happen. You start playing a song and if it ain't jazzing, you can't make it jazz. But if it's jazzing
and you go with it - if it ain't jazzing in the thing
and do something else - you can do it later. I don't like story songs. You
can't jazz them. You go through once and you've got the story and what else you
going to do right then - you know you can't do these story songs more than
once. I don't like songs that you can't do more than once because I'm trying to
make records. I like songs you can do five times and they never get tired of it
because you don't do it the same way. It's them little
subtle things. Music is a subtle thing anyway, that's the whole essence of
music - subtlety. Guess you could live
without it. You don't eat it, it has no vitamins or minerals, but I think it is
necessary. The rhythm part of it comes right out of it - primitive.
#1 - It had to
have started with drums.
#2 - Come right
out of nature.
#1 - It seems
to me the first instrument had to have been the drum.
#2 - Yeah. The rhythm,
the first instrument we had was some kind of rhythmic thing. I mean 2 and 2 had
always been 4. If something is divisible by 2 it's always been divisible by 2.
So you find certain patterns emerging. Well these patterns are innate to the
human body, too. You know like 1, 2, 3 (in rhythm) 1,
2, 3.
#1 - It's a
waltz.
#2 - Still 1, 2, 3. Put three of them together and it's nine. That's
still divisible by 3.
The fox trot is 1, 2, 3, 4.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6; 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6; - two of them is divisible by 4. It's slow,
slow, quick, quick. It's slow, slow, quick, quick.
But still 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6; 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6; 1, 2, 3,
4; 1, 2, 3, 4.
#1 -
#2 - In dancing
they teach you there is an exact foot position. There's that one and there's
that one for the left foot forward and there's that one, I believe that's about
it.
#1 - We haven't
talked about J.M.I.
#2 - I had Rick
Finezack write up a little story on J.M.I. It's good
because it's just sort of 3 or 4 page thing but it's in the right sequence.
It's laid out right. It's in good outline. You can expand it - any part you
wanted to. I'll get you a copy of that. I just had him write me some stories
just to have. What about J.M.I.?
#1 - Well, they
were wanting to get it on type.
#2 - The J.M.I
story?
#1 - Because to
me what they called later Progressive Country was something that was found on
sound.
#2 - Well, I
suppose there is some connection. I think one of the early records of that
particular kind of thing was Waylon's record of "Good Hearted Woman".
That's one we didn't cut it but we worked it out - we made to tape - we did cut
it and the cut we made was Waylon singing it and me and him playing the
guitars. That was awfully close to the record he cut a few days later, playing
that tape far the bond aver at RCA. I guess he played the tape - we worked it out
- worked out the rhythm of it. da
ta da. (singing).
See those major dances, like the waltz, tango, samba, jitter bug, fox trot -
and then there are some Latin kind of things like the
Mambo which is an off-shoot of the rhumba. When I was
there at Arthur Murray's training class, there was one we dedicated to rhumba and mambo. I never did like the mambo very much. The
rhumba was all right, but all those other things the bossa nova and what was that thing going around - cha-cha -
and all those are offshoots of the rhumba and the
mambo. Mostly mambo. Was it mambo or mamba? I didn't like it. Jerky - it was
jerky. But they're all the same dance - just styles of the dance. It's sort of
outlaw, so-called music I don't think it was a style of something else rather
than a total thing, you know. It ain't a waltz - it's
a rhumba or it ain't a rhumba. It ain't a mamba, it's a
cha-cha. Passing part of it and that's a good part of it, passing part, getting
somewhere else from this point to that point by way of somewhere else. So,
that's been here all the time. That kind of beat.
#1 - What is
your ultimate goal?
#2 - I don't have any
one in particular. Thing I'd like to do best is to be able to get into a
spaceship and play a star. Go visit some other planets in this galaxy or go
visit some other galaxy. That's what I'd really like to do. Be a spaceman, that's
what my ultimate goal is to be, in my lifetime. I mean, get in a ship and blast
off. I don't know if I'll ever be able to pull that off. But, I've been waiting
for 16 track. Shortly after I discovered the mono tape
recorder I was asking Sam wouldn't it be possible to put two of them things on
top of each other so we could have the voice on one track and the band on the
other. I was looking for stereo about two or three months after I found Sun
Records Studio, you know. And it was only about 6 or 8 months later that they
came out with it. If they hadn't, I'd have probably invented stereo. I figured
we had to separate them two tracks, because of their magnetic jazz going on -
we thought we could stick a piece of leader tape in there between them and the
tape would have been about a half inch wide. But it would have been nice if you
could have the voice on one track and the band on the other, then you could
change it later on or have it separately, that was what I was needing back
there. If I'd had a two track at Sun, of course that was available, we could
have; Sun stayed mono after a lot of other people had gone to three track. Not
too long. But it was still mono when I left there. So we were building a new
studio at the time. Sam was –
#1 - He talked
about it for years.
#2 - That's one
of the things - when I went to work for Sam, there were things I didn't like
about him too much. But there were things I did like about him. One of the
things I liked about him was that he was into machines like I was. He was
always talking about a Scully lathe, he wanted a
Scully lathe for years. It cost about $7,000. He could have bought ten while I
was working for him. He was still talking about it - "One of these days
I'm going to have a Scully lathe".
#1 - Sell one
or sell the whole business.
#2 - I never
did know about this Holiday Inn stock, whether he had a bunch of it or what.
#1 - How come
you didn't buy in on that?
#2 - Didn't
particularly have any money to buy in on it. Or any
particular inclination to buy stock anyway. I was more into buying
something else.
#1 - Who is the
best singer you've ever heard?
#2 - George Jones, Jerry Lee and Louis Armstrong.
#1 - What about
songs - do you have any favorite songs?
#2 - Yeah, I've
got a lot of favorite songs: "When I Dream" which I regard as the
most near perfect song, it's not perfect,
but I can't find
anything wrong with it; "As I Lived" is a melody and a three minute
script - that's one of my own songs, I think.
My favorite probably is "Some Cowboys Hated Horses".
#1 -
#2 - I produced the
only record. I got one song that I wrote that has not been sung by anybody but
Louis Armstrong. That is "Why Did Mrs. Murphy Leave Town."
#2 - Of all the
people, the things, I'd really like
to have another
crack at is the band I could put together right now, or four or five years from
now. And not call it country. I don't mean we'd change the songs, but just
wouldn't say its a country album. It don't sound funny at all to me to hear the steel guitar on
"Almost Persuaded" with Louie singing it. Louis just sings right into
whatever. I came back and told Charley Pride "Why can't you be like
Louis?" He reminded me of that several times. He later remembered it.
#1 -
#2 - Most of the time, and Betty Berger who was Sister
Zula, who was the one that hired me for Arthur Murrays. Betty worked over
there at Sam's Radio Station in
#1 - Was that a
million song?
#2 - Huh?
#1 - Was that a
million dollar song?
#2 - What
#1 -
"Since I Met You Baby"
#2 - I didn't do
that. I did a version of it later. Yeah that was a big hit back in the rocking
40's. Bobby Joe was a big singer back then.
#1 - O.K. but I
thought you did that more recently. #2 - No.
#1 - Well then
"I Almost Lost My Mind" did you do that
one?
#2 - No. I re-did them four or five years ago down at Studio B. I was
producing " - " with Ivory Joe. I've got a
tape up there in the attic of Ivory Joe and Charley Pride singing this song. I
got all kinds of tapes. I'll pull them out some of these times. I got an
original of Elvis, talking, interview from
#1 - How come
Elvis never cut more jazz music songs?
#2 - I got a
bunch of film too. Remember that album by my father?
#1 - That's the
one you did with, on him.
#2 - Well, we
did it originally with his voice and the piano. And we over dubbed some people.
I took four voices and made it should like a choir with stacking tracks. Well,
I'm going to go back sometimes and re-do that and have a real choir, maybe some
trombones and no telling what all else. Put it on there and release it
commercially. My father might get to be a Rock and Roll star, which would be
all right. But in case my Father ever has a hit I got him on film in the cute
little set we have down there. Ken Threadgill - I got
a whole album in can of him, produced by me and Waylon Jennings and Kris Kristofferson.
And I got that on film
#1 - He is
still going strong. The last I heard.
#2 - I got Charley
Pride at the Astrodome, hour and 10 minutes, plus all the cows and everything,
you know - horses. An hour and 10 minutes of the Astrodome,
the bigness of which is illustrated by the fact that Charlie Pride is there.
And we got shots of the board that says "Thank you, Charley", for
drawing the second largest attendance in the history of the Astrodome for Friday night (whatever it was),
second only to Elvis.
#1 – That was the
rodeo wasn’t it?
#2 - I've got
his fantastic shot at the top of the Astrodome in the day when the sun comes
through, it’s like a giant spaceship, and it’s a straight shot up and Ron turns
the camera so it looks like the thing turns and comes around like a spaceship.
I could use just that much in some sequence, for my son's fishing country
movies. The Astrodome is a great place to write a movie
about, you know, just go down there with all them lights, the space and
all the stuff you could get there.
#1 - What about
the Superdome, it must be alike.
#2 - Uh-huh.
#1 - I haven't
been able to go in yet, but it must be unbelievable. I watched the Astrodome
being built. I lived about three miles from there. Used to go
over there when it was under construction. They never had any guards or
nothing over there. You'd have to have dynamite to hurt it. We used to go and
get a six-pack and go sit down on the concrete before they had the seats there
and watch and just look at it.. They had a crane at
home plate with arm that stretched to the top of the structure, and it would be
sitting there at home plate and there would be this steel arm. We'd get out and
walk around the field and just walk around, nobody ever said boo to us. They
didn't have a watchman or anything. It was just like a different world when you
walk through those doors.
#2 - Where was
that?
#1 - The Astrodome. It was just like another planet, self enclosed little
area.
#2 - I loved
it. When I went down there that time I
took a film, a
small film crew, we ran two cameras and took the sound off the P.A. mix which
was pretty good, because they've got a control room up there and everything.
And they kind of gave us the run of the place. I knew the guy that kind of runs
it, Dick Weekly, and he let me play with the lights, you know, and I wanted to
get a bunch of the cows over therea whole big building
with big cows and everything, it was during the fat stock show. So what I've
got, I wanted to shoot Charley Pride - just to get some stuff I could use. Well
I got that. But in addition, what I
really did was cover that event, sort of, on film. And I own that film. One of
these days - it looks good too. It's great. Some of it, footage, just footage,
and it'll be great ten years from now. We did it on good stock and the place is
so photogenic. I fell in love with it. I could, you know, why not just find a
couple of places like that, get all the good visual stuff and sculpt a story to
use it.
#1 - Robert
Altman did a whole movie in
#2 - Well, he
did
#1 - He took a
lot of cheap shots.
#2 - That's
what I did at the Astrodome. It was like I did at the Astrodome, and Charley
Pride happened to be there.
Well I happened
to be there because I budgeted that thing
and brought a
camera man down from
#1 - Fly right
out the top.
#2 -Then get somebody in this limousine open convertible type - not
an open car - convertible. He gets on stage and does his show and then when
it's over the limousine wheels up there and he walks down with his cowboy hat
and he gives it to somebody and he gets into the limousine and the guy in the
front seat, he goes all the way around - It's great.
#1 - I saw
Merle Haggard do that.
#2 - We could
catch it. I got it, magnificent - all of that
event. It was a big event – 40 thousand
#1 – 40?
#2 – Or
something like that. It was the second
biggest attendance that they had had for that particular night in the history
of the Fat Stock Show. I think it was
Friday.
#1 – Elvis was
the biggest?
#2 – Yeah. It said that on the board: “Thank you, Charley Pride.” (had his picture and everything) you know, and that time when
they had the hand clapping a all, I got
lot out of that, you know, and right in time with the music.
#1 - What video
exactly did you show
#2 - That 13
minute thing I did.